Curse

Lord Mendes · Jun 20, 2007, 12:08 PM // 12:08

A step in the right direction, though hexes still need some more toning down.
I would also like to see something down about Recall and Para/rit spike in HA.

@ Andrew Patrick,
Thank you for posting and including these threads in your report.

cookiemonkie · Jun 20, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Hey ANET has to make sure they aren't eating dirt so they need to work on GW 4th episode and GW2.

Thank you for this update, the buff to convert hexes really goes a long way. A few more balances especially to Rit spike, Paraspike and Expose Defense/SP/ Assassins would go a long way towards making this from "good" back to "very-good / great" again. Ensign's suggestions goes a long way towards removing mindless game play.

Thomas.knbk · Jun 20, 2007, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

If you have more proposed changes, please feel free to discuss them. It's a lot easier for there to be one big thread about skill balance instead of individual threads for each skill you think should be nerfed/buffed.

Guild Wars for dummies needs to go. That would be Shadow Prison (<--big one), Searing Flames, Hexes in general, Crippling Slash (though it's kinda held in check by RC being so common), Rampage as One, Mantra of Recovery+diversion (diversion without MoR is good), Steady Stance/fear me, and every skill of which you could say 'a bad player can use this (almost) as effective as a top player.' We need more skills like Diversion, Gale, Bull's Strike (<3), and Distracting Shot of which you can say 'a good player will use this a hundred times more effective than a bad player.'
I will admit I had actually given up hope already, but this update and a CR person actually trying to get in touch with the PvP community has given me hope again. Thanks.

Patccmoi · Jun 20, 2007, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

and every skill of which you could say 'a bad player can use this (almost) as effective as a top player.'

I think that's exagerated. I don't think the problem is when some individual skills don't require much player skill. Some, like Conjure, are fine and should exist in the game and ofc a bad player can 'use Conjure' as good as a bad one.

The problem is when a full character can be done around it. For example, Conjure might be the same for a bad and a good player, but a good player will use his warrior a damn lot better so that his Conjure matters while a bad player won't really handle it well and it won't really matter.

So things like a SF Ele or SP sin imo are problematic (well, was for SF. Now it's kinda balanced) because honestly a 'good' SF Ele or a 'bad' SF Ele won't be much different. Same for SP sin. But not 'every skill that doesn't directly require player skill to use' needs to go.

Lorekeeper · Jun 20, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

nice update! definately touches on skills that many people have been concerned with in terms of balance.

frozen burst - even with reduced duration it remains a highly spammable aoe snare. The best change would be aimed at its recharge not only its duration. 8sec recharge at least or 12sec in line with grasping earth.

mark of rodgort - this is unnecessary, the drawback of this skill is that it requires for targets to be struck with fire dmg to trigger the burning. Another drawback is that the fire ele bar becomes less dmg orientated and aoe skills it does have must be used carefully in order to be of full effect. With an aoe that only effects adjacent foes i really dont see why a 10 second increase was necessary. Perhaps a 10sec recharge would be a better compromise. It was always meant to be an expensive spammable spell... up the nrg cost but a 15sec recharge kinda ruins the pressure this skill can provide.

searing flames - nice one, its always a tough skill to balance since nerfing its effectiveness when it comes in multiples could possibly completely nerf its effectiveness on a single fire ele. I hope this is the right compromise.

convert hexes - good buff... whether it gets used is another thing.

Faintheartedness - this skill is great anti physical shutdown... at 12 curse it does the same degen as lifesiphon but gives -50% IaS on top of that at the same nrg cost. I dont think cutting its duration for such a small amount really addresses the issue of this hex and other hexes in general.

i think it would be better to increase its recharge and scale the IaS debuff according to the curses. 12sec recharge with 50% IaS debuff at 16 curse. Not sure how to work out the scaling.

Reapers Mark - a very good change. It still is very good at what it does for 5nrg tho.

Natures renewal - i dont understand this buff... its as if you think buffing NR will encourage its use to counter hex builds. But you are making the situation worse... the whole problem with hex builds is that it requires a substantial investment in terms of skills and build to cope with the hex pressure. By buffing skills that counter hexes you are just perpetuating the problem that is build wars. All thats needed is a balance of all the hexes that were buffed i the massive hex buff update last year. That was the start of the whole problem.

Crippling slash - i suppose this was necessary
Enraging charge - this was not necessary, especially with the nerf to crippling slash...

Thomas.knbk · Jun 20, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I think that's exagerated. I don't think the problem is when some individual skills don't require much player skill. Some, like Conjure, are fine and should exist in the game and ofc a bad player can 'use Conjure' as good as a bad one.

The problem is when a full character can be done around it. For example, Conjure might be the same for a bad and a good player, but a good player will use his warrior a damn lot better so that his Conjure matters while a bad player won't really handle it well and it won't really matter.

So things like a SF Ele or SP sin imo are problematic (well, was for SF. Now it's kinda balanced) because honestly a 'good' SF Ele or a 'bad' SF Ele won't be much different. Same for SP sin. But not 'every skill that doesn't directly require player skill to use' needs to go.

I only have one thing to say

you're right

v o i d · Jun 20, 2007, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Excellent update, clearly the right direction.

Jade Zephyr · Jun 20, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

I dont get why everyone are talking about NR buff? Its not exactly like it does anything else now.. Just lasts longer, higher health and armor, you can still kill it right?

Also, good update, and the fact that anet are acctually commenting in this thread makes me happy.
Curses should be hit alot harder though, Reapers Mark wont change much and Faint little.

Saider maul · Jun 20, 2007, 04:28 PM // 16:28

I honestly dont See Why there is so much Hex hate. With the recent changes Reapers mark and faintful can only be maintained on 2.5-3 people and thats without facing hex removal. I do however feel faintful should be made a 10sec recharge just to fall in line with casting cycle and give those who hate Hexes some security knowing a Hex was nerfed just that much more. < EG >

But honestly look at what was done to price/spirit of failure. those skills are no longer user friendly thanks to the recharges. I'd much rather see these skill have a 10/2/12 with scaled duration of 5-15-19sec. Currently 1 purge or an expel to my target of anti melee and i have to wait 20-25sec before i can use it again. How long do you wait to re apply cripple, or blind, etc. And you scream hex is completely unbalanced.

We cant just look to nerf hex to hell and back. If you really want to make them comparable to condition where " Skill " is needed to use them properly then design them as such, Which would require changes to duration, casting costs, cast times, recharges etc.

There are enough changes to anti hex now that only minimal changes remain to be made to hexes. These arguements are mainly over not wanting to waste an elite slot or several utility slots among the teams template for anti hex.

If you wanna talk broken or " over powered " skills Lets talk about Arcane conundrum. with the changes made I think they forgot the elite status change to the skill. Aside from the added degen and slightly better recharge this skill is far superior to miagraine atm.

I think there are some more important skills do be addressed.

Liberations · Jun 20, 2007, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Great update. I use SF all the time, but suprisingly I'm MORE than happy to see it nerfed. I can't stand in PvP, even though I use it. It's just not fun, but it's the only kind of group I can get into cause I only have R1.

As mentioned above, it is a step in the right direction.

TedTheDead · Jun 20, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

The convert buff is probably the dumbest thing I've seen in a while. It's not, and has never been about removal, it's about the ease of reapplication.

Really? You can remove an entire hex stack now every 12 seconds, almost twice as often from this skill alone, and for much less than the cost of the hexes being removed. If its a battle over time of application vs removal that you're worried about, those hexes are going to eat up energy much faster than convert will.

/2 cents

Elrodien · Jun 20, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

I certainly think this update is good, but more importantly, some evidence of Anet listening to the PvP fanbase. I think us pvpers were feeling a little unwanted and unloved, so its nice to see that Anet have finally decided to say 'hello, we are listening'.

Keep it up Anet and I may even buy GW2.

Qual · Jun 20, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Let me sum' it up. Most people likes this update. But I can't see anyone who understands Enraging charge nerf. Let us hope they rebuff it.
BTW. I would like a rebuff to glowing gaze, now that SF is nerfed.

Ensign · Jun 20, 2007, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Touching on some of the changes...

Armor Stacking: This has worked out really well, you can feel the difference in how hard a team is. It takes care of other abuses as well - just a good mechanical change overall.

Clumsiness: I like this a lot. I'm not sure how to build the character, but the buff has made the Illusion Mesmer a lot more attractive in skirmishes. Easily the best buff made in these updates. Even if the skill proves too strong, do not hit the recharge again - fast cycling is what has turned it into a skill capable of useful plays instead of just something cute.

Mantra of Persistence: Excellent change, takes away the tool that changed otherwise fair but balanced hexes into monsters.

Weapon of Warding: It's still playable on a Rit primary, though barely. The Spawning change doesn't really help, since it isn't enough of a boost to make you want to invest in the attribute. It's just bad on a Rit secondary now, which I won't miss terribly.

Blurred Vision: Not very happy with this change. It's hurt Water severely in skirmish, namely when trying to deal with a Burning Arrow Ranger. There's not a lot that can stand up to that template to begin with, and I'd like to see those options expanded, not reduced.

Frozen Burst: Good, the skill should be hit, but I don't think this does too much - you can still Burst lock people without any issues.

Searing Flames: Yay.

Faintheartedness/Reaper's Mark: Not much, but it's at least something to the hexer that makes that build so dangerous.

Nature's Renewal: I'm not sure why this skill needed a buff, it's crazy already. Don't think of it as an anti-hex skill, but an anti-caster skill (as virtually every caster makes use of enchantments and hexes). NR is really a metagame litmus test - if it's being run, something is really screwed up on one side or another, and that's what needs looking at.

Burton2000 · Jun 20, 2007, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Well I think they nerfed enraging because it gets hammer wars adrenaline so easy without having to hit 10 times to charge a backbreaker. Just my thoughts.

Lodurr · Jun 20, 2007, 09:29 PM // 21:29

I use Enraging like mad and I don't mind the breakpoints being pushed up a little. It is overpowered, it's like "To The Limit!" except in Strength and it makes you run fast too. And it still stomps Sprint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

frozen burst - even with reduced duration it remains a highly spammable aoe snare. The best change would be aimed at its recharge not only its duration. 8sec recharge at least or 12sec in line with grasping earth.

Putting it in line with Grasping Earth would be a mistake because Grasping lasts so much longer and costs just 5e. It's got to have some edge, however minor. I like the 8s recharge idea.

Quote:

mark of rodgort - this is unnecessary, the drawback of this skill is that it requires for targets to be struck with fire dmg to trigger the burning. Another drawback is that the fire ele bar becomes less dmg orientated and aoe skills it does have must be used carefully in order to be of full effect. With an aoe that only effects adjacent foes i really dont see why a 10 second increase was necessary. Perhaps a 10sec recharge would be a better compromise. It was always meant to be an expensive spammable spell... up the nrg cost but a 15sec recharge kinda ruins the pressure this skill can provide.

We faced a team with two midline fire eles last night using Mark of Rodgort, and it still owns. It takes some real coordination, like having your melee run fire weapons, to get the best effect from it. Once you get your pressure going, the enemy monks don't have the energy for removing all the Marks.

Skuld · Jun 20, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Good update

Now lets have some meatier ones along the same line

Clouded One · Jun 20, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Enraging hasn't seemed to prove a problem to myself, yes it is less adren but with the added speed boost it was really kind of a power house skill now it is more on par. Crip slash change isn't a big deal the attack speed of a sword makes 6 adren easy to get, and let's face it your getting cripple AND bleeding from one skills.

The update is looking like a move in the right direction i just hope Anet keep doesn't do an about-face. Very good update in my opinion

Shmanka · Jun 20, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Ok, for the record just played an Oath shot spammer in HA, got some damn good runs. Now usually the warrior tries to get rid of me and the spirits along the line with some other chars pressuring me out, I'm quite fond of it.

All I have to say is that the damn spirit is beyond broken, often times warriors would run out of the dust trap, make the ghost activate it etc etc but now it feels like I have an extra 20-30 seconds to check my facebook before NR gets axed out.

Nothing should ever be this easy.

I want NR to have its original level restored and cost 25 energy. Ensign actually took the words that best described it "Litmus Test"

Thom Bangalter · Jun 20, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qual

Let me sum' it up. Most people likes this update. But I can't see anyone who understands Enraging charge nerf. Let us hope they rebuff it.
BTW. I would like a rebuff to glowing gaze, now that SF is nerfed.

enraging made hammer warriors too easy. strong skill for crip slash split guys too. Definetly for the best, those 3 stance hammer warriors were a bit stupid with earth shaker being up almost all the time.

Frozen burst: it wasn't that good a skill. pretty good, but incredibly easy for warriors to punish the guy using it, particularly if you have a 60 armor caster running up to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Blurred Vision: Not very happy with this change. It's hurt Water severely in skirmish, namely when trying to deal with a Burning Arrow Ranger. There's not a lot that can stand up to that template to begin with, and I'd like to see those options expanded, not reduced.

<IMPORTANT!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedtheDead

Really? You can remove an entire hex stack now every 12 seconds, almost twice as often from this skill alone, and for much less than the cost of the hexes being removed. If its a battle over time of application vs removal that you're worried about, those hexes are going to eat up energy much faster than convert will.

A good hex team isn't going to stack, they're going to have a few nasty hexes on each character if the necro is any decent.